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Book Discussion on Trident K9 Warriors

Mike Ritland discusses his book ``Trident K9 Warriors: My Tale From the Training Ground to the Battlefield With Elite navy SEAL Canines.''

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Us 8, Savannah 3, Navy 3, The Navy 2, Etc. 2, Vietnam 2, Ptsd 2, Light Iraq 1, Holland 1, Messier 1, Lebron James Or Michael Jordan 1, Mankind 1, Verisign 1, Bud 1, Northern Iowa 1, Escalators 1, Rangers 1, Afghanistan 1, Texas 1, Stairwells 1,
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  CSPAN    Book Discussion on Trident K9 Warriors    Mike Ritland discusses his book ``Trident K9 Warriors: My  
   Tale From the Training Ground to the Battlefield With Elite...  

    March 1, 2014
    2:45 - 3:34pm EST  

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initially considered -- conservative influence the liberal environment. >> another good question. we found most of these students came in thinking of themselves as generically republican or conservative although there were a few that had moved toward greater conservatism but we also found that in college students further refined how they referred to themselves as conservatives so people who initially identified as republican or conservative then became fiscal conservatives or catholic conservatives. one of our interviewees, thinking of one person in particular referred to herself as the crunchy conservative. she is very pro-life but she is pro environment, pro social justice, some other ways. so things get messier once they
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get to college. >> please join me in thanking amy binder for this presentation. [applause] >> visit booktv.org to watch any of the programs you see here online. type the offer or book title on the search bar on the upper left of the page and click search. you can share anything you see on booktv.org easily by clicking share on the upper left of the page and selecting the format. booktv streams live online for 48 hours every weekend with top nonfiction books and authors. booktv.org. >> next 1/7 annual savannah book festival in savannah, ga. ritland "trident k-9 warriors: my tale from the training ground to the battlefield with elite navy seal canines". this is about 45 minutes.
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[applause] >> good morning. first of all, i would like to thank the savannah book festival for having me here. it is a marvelous thing and gives a lot of doctors access to the venues like this to be able to talk about what they do and what they are passionate about so first and foremost would like to thank them for bringing me here. i would like to thank everybody that is sitting about here to taking interest in the book that i wrote. the message i like to convey, the importance of military working dogs and different missions they are doing, things they're capable of without your support so thank you for coming and supporting me and the book.
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in my background as far as i got involved, especially as it relates to military working dogs. i grew up in northern iowa. there is not a lot to do other than farm, wrestle and hunt. it was kind of i wouldn't say necessarily a destiny as opposed to picking one of the few things to do in iowa but i got involved in bird dogs early on. a lot of my friends had them. we had a black lab growing up named bud, kind of my buddy and the gateway into the dog world as it were. at a very early age i recognized and appreciated the different genetic traits all these dogs possess in terms of their ability to use their nose, their steadfastness in terms of what
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they were willing to go through from an environmental standpoint, rushing quote through, bursting through thickets of brush and so on, tough dogs that were motivated to do the type of work we were asking them to do. i noticed even as a young child, the dog's ability to use their nose. they would instinctual use the wind to their advantage and find things that for me was very surprising that they were able to do it. it was foreshadowing in terms of what we do now and where it led me ultimately and the fascination for their ability to use their nose is something frankly is why they are so valuable from a military standpoint. i didn't realize that at that age. it was just cool to see a dog in the dead of winter could snake back and forth and buried his nose 12 inches in the snow and
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find a ketchup packets that had been opened six weeks earlier. to me it was just need to see something like that and the applications that i got involved with later on were much more serious than catch up. i spent a number of years with friends, their dads who trained their dogs. the dog would go out and we would go the core bird hunting and i always marvel that a dog's ability to do what they did. once i graduated high school i joined the navy at 17, right out of high school as soon as i graduated i went to boot camp. six months after boot camp after my initial school training i went to basic underwater demolitions field training. i completed-and after that went through more specialized training, advanced training until you get to an actual seal
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team, seal team 3, i was there for a number of years while i was there and prior to that i got into catch dogs, dogs hunting dogs that cetera, pit bulls which i talk about in the book a little bit and i found myself just marveling at the physical characteristics dogs possessed, in a similar way to the bird dogs but now there is an added element, true forward natural aggression these dogs possess toward other animals and i found myself very impressed by their tenacity and their will to succeed, there will to win and their ability to take down animals two, three, four times verisign is. at that point i got into that animal husbandry aspect of dogs, i paid close attention to nutrition and conditioning from a veterinarian aspect. i learned a lot in terms of catching dogs up after they get
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injured in hunts, etc.. i learned just about every aspect of raising dogs from an animal husbandry standpoint the way dairy farmer would. and into the genetic theory of everything and blood lines and how they affect different aspects of a breeding program and why it is important to pay attention and getting really into the weeds as far as breathing is concerned. after that, i got more involved in terms of every aspect of managing dogs and i had a number of dogs which i bred and raised and trained for hunting and working purposes. in light iraq deployment in 2003 there was a marine detachment that had a single purpose expression dog and what he did
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was essentials lee alerted gone a cave complex, a small doorway was not much bigger than one person could get through at a time. a group of marines were ready to go inside and clear it and their dog was snaking back and forth, all this change in behavior, the dog was into his target odor, and immediately he sat down indicating there was explosive odor back there. there was a clump of grenades attached to a booby trap inside the doorway. for me, without question, that was my light switch moment in terms of really realizing the potential that these dogs had and the rules that they were able to play in augmenting mankind overseas in the battlefield. from that date forward i was
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starved for knowledge in terms of working dogs as it relates to military and police type of work. i found it very fitting and very powerful, one of the things i mentioned early on in the book, from the earliest recorded times of battle there is one constant in terms of what we still use even today. we have billions if not trillions of dollars invested in smart bombs and drones and laser-guided everything and night vision and ammunition, you name it. but from the earliest recorded times of when man battled each other there is one constant and that is the use of k-9s as far back as egypt, they used dogs to augment themselves in battle. to me it really speaks to the
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truism of man's best friend. not only are they great pets and great companions but dogs that save our lives and we literally depend on them to help keep us safe any number of capacities. when i was finished with my time i move gone to an instructor role. the nice thing is it gave me a bit of a break from an operational standpoint and i was able to get into the weeds of dog training as it relates to military work. i trained with a number of different clubs and groups and units, organizations, attachments, etc. that gave me a well-rounded perspective of what dogs did, how they did it, right ways to train, wrong ways to train, all the tran multitudes of ways these dogs are
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incorporated into military service, and there is truly the sky is the limit mentality in terms of what you can do with these dogs. i realize that quickly and the only thing that limited to us as human beings to what we could do with these dogs was ourselves. from a training perspective if we put our minds to it there's almost nothing that we couldn't do with these dogs. it was very i opening to me, the level of capability and capacity you can get these dogs to. as i transition to get out of the navy, is when the regular seal teams started implementing their own k-9 program. it is frustrating from a military standpoint, as of former special operator in that dog programs were used before within the special warfare communities back in vietnam. there are a number of units that
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use them, most of them did, there were seasoned handlers, very experienced, knew how to train the dogs and knew where they need to be to deploy, deployed with them, vietnam's ended, very expensive and from a building standpoint, manpower and resources they are hard to maintain and when budget cuts come like they usually do programs like that are unfortunately one of the first to go because they are so labor-intensive and expensive sofa k-9 programs left. there's not a single special operations unit that still use k-9s from the end of vietnam until post 911. with fewer exceptions, military police and k-9 handlers augment different units for certain capacities, there was no self-sufficient entities in terms of k-9 programs. k-9 programs are no different
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from a police unit, military branch and it is not a light switch type of application, you can't turn it off and 20 years later get the k-9s back on, flip the light switch on and there's a cohesive unit that works the same before you turned on. no different from a special operations unit but you can't disband special operations after a military conflict is over and ten years later something happens and let's just get the guys back going to. it doesn't work that way. after 9/11 it became very apparent with all the work we were doing in afghanistan and iraq, military working dogs were something that were of enormous value. at first they started using military police dogs with their handlers and trying to incorporate them in that capacity but they were limited in terms of the ability of the dogs and the operators because
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the military police guys are not special operations guys so there could be a conflict in terms of the level of dynamic nature you can operate. once each unit figured out that they needed their own program pretty much each unit devised their own k-9 program because each group, rangers, green berets, special warfare, any of the other counterterrorism units, there is a different enough mission to where each group needs its own program. it is all run in-house. it is not part of the nw deprogram. they are self-sufficient and done from the ground up with each prospect of yet. unit. from a big picture standpoint it is tied for people to understand why there is such a difference. it is the nature of the beast and the level that special
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operations group operate at really dictates that each group has its own program. .. program. it was a stumbling process at first for a number of groups because unlike any other tool coming in to use the word tool not in a disrespectful manner but in the fact that they are a remarkable and incredibly valuable tool that we use to help augment us and stay safe overseas and in that it is just like anything else you have to learn how to use it properly. dogs unlike any other thing used to get weused to get a weapon s, night vision vehicles, whatever platform you want to apply are pretty cut and dry. it's usually a piece of mechanical equipment from having used other similar pieces of it and. when you get to the dog is this a completely different animal than a pun intended. but it is being able to truly
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understand what the dog is communicating with and from his body language is something that takes years to develop. it takes an enormous amount of experience from both the volume standpoint and the disparity between different blogs because they are all individuals the same way you and i are. they have different characteristics and traits into past life experiences that forge and dictate how they respond to certain scenarios and until you have experienced these different environments it is difficult to understand what he is feeling and thinking and how he is going to respond. the only way that you can manage and dictate how they respond is to first understand where he's coming from and then also use our body language to communicate
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back what is expected of them and that transfers to pet dogs, any type of working dog in that animals are almost overwhelmingly nonverbal communicators and so it is our job to be able to communicate back to them what it is that we expect of them. you have to reinforce the behavior to get it to occur again and it's really that simple, but to teach somebody that it's not a weekend course or three-day seminar. it's years of experience. and so there were a lot of lessons learned the hard way, dogs not doing what they needed to be doing, going overseas with them and then not performing up to par what we needed them to do it was a very steep learning curve and a lot of the handlers and trainers and other operators for that matter were drinking from the firehose in terms of
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what they were learning. once the bugs began to get worked out, there was a very fluid operational capacity that dogs now played. most of the operators had been overseas and operated before and knew what to expect. the dogs had been operating for several years and everything was getting hammered out and started to transition very smoothly and now it got to the point where every unit has multiple dogs and they are doing a fantastic job with them, be it parachuted or any number of high-level different missions in the environments that we operate with them and the guys that operate within its remarkable and it speaks to the versatility of dogs in general in terms of what you can get them to do.
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moving forward, i was at a crossroads personally. at the end of 2,008 i could either stay in the navy and become one of the handlers early on and become a part of the program or i could separate from the navy and start my own company and try to have a larger impact in terms of training, supplying the different scenarios and training courses for the military and it was a tough decision for me personally. it's one that from a selfish standpoint if i'm looking at it just selfishly i wanted to stay and be a handler. it was a very tough decision for me to make instead of getting that one-on-one time and doing the dance with them and they did
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try to make a bigger impact to get out and form a company and provide a multitude of services and ultimately and obviously that is what i ended up doing. it was important and dear to my heart to make as big a difference as i could. no different than when i joined the navy to the reason i went into the team is because i wanted to make the largest impact i could. i have always kind of taken that train of thought with everything i've done as that is going to make the biggest impact and thus far it has worked out pretty well. but it was still a difficult decision for me to say i'm going to forgo what i want to do personally and i'm going to to transmit a larger impact and do thtodo that greater good for the entire community. i started my own company. we did a lot for a host of different clients and in a number of different capacities. some of them are going into drug
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dog programs for the border patrol and some of them were going into the land security for airports to and some of them are going to the department of defense for military work and i realized very quickly that again this is something the level of impact they can and act in the role they play is much bigger than me or anyone person and that's why there are a multitude of people like me that do the exact same thing. there's a number of vendors and companies that provide similar services. a few years and we secured the training contract for a special operations unit. myself and one other employee went out and we were trainers for a period of time and for me i would say that was kind of the best of everything for me in
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that i have put several years into the company and now i was back to where i owned the company that was providing the trainers and dogs and training for the same group by group a thing and it's something i will always be very proud of and just tickled to death to have been part of because they put everything together for me. once i decided to write the book i was essentially approached by my publisher to write it and one of the reasons was the amount of information or misinformation or lack of information that has been out there as it relates to military dogs especially in special operations groups there is a ton of misinformation out there and there's also a lot of just american citizens that have no ideas that the dogs are used at a minimum in the capacity that they are.
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it can't be overstated how important they are. there are literally tens of thousands of american troops who are here today because of dogs like these. and it just -- for me it's important that it was and still is important and everybody realizes that so for me it was a tough decision to write the book because of the amount of exposure that it gives. the guys like me are not typically ones that want to be in the spotlight and want people to know who they are or what they do or what they have done. so again i was kind of at a crossroads and not do i stay keeping the low-profile just providing the work or does it make sense to put a highlight on these blogs and make the entire public understand just how vital and important they are and how lifesaving they are and again it would have been easier to just keep doing what i was doing and
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that none of you would be sitting here and no one would know who i am. but again, when i look back at post-vietnam programs getting turned off or here in the next year or two when things are rounded down to the point where from a penny pinch her standpoint it doesn't make sense to keep these expensive k9 program, i hope, and michael is that there is enough interest and passion behind the general public to keep these programs going because they are so vital. once i decided to write about it is largely been a great experience for me in terms of the feedback that i've gotten and the questions i get asked and got e-mails and messages i get from people that say i have absolutely no idea that the dogs were used to the way they are and people are just behind.
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they are excited about it and they support it. from the time i started with dogs and providing all these dogs from day number one, it was always on the front side essentially and i put a lot into providing job training services etc.. one of the things i realized very quickly was that on the back and, there wasn't much of a support structure and there was essentially none as it relates to special operations working dogs. once they are done whether it be from combat injuries, combat stress-related mental issues or just old age just like the guys like m me gets get to a certaind can't do the job they are doing at the level we need to anymore it is time to write out of the e pastor and go do something else and dogs are the same way.
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what i realized is that there are not any support structures for those dogs and it honestly happened by accident and that there was a unit that approached me and said we have to dogs both of them have been wounded and are almost nine years. it's time for them to retire. we don't have the capacity to do what we need to do with them. a lot of people when they hear that are angered by that and let me clarify that one thing you have to realize about any operational unit is that their job is first and foremost is to be operationally ready at the highest level possible. while nobody wants to know that there'there is not a place for e dogs to go, which there is, but i think a lot of people assume i don't have the units take care and the reason why is because if it detracts from being operationally ready because we are taking the care of the dogs and we can't get the resources necessary to train and equip the
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existing dogs than that is one of those necessary evils and a conflict of interest etc. where you have to make the right decision for those that are going down range all the time and put the resources into the actual operators. where i came in they said we need a place for them to go and i wasn't really set up to accommodate that but given the circumstances there is nowhere for them to go we need somebody to take them. that was almost four years ago now and we've been doing it ever since. we have an actual foundation that organized into ten nonprofit that rehabilitates or if that isn't possible to act as a sanctuary essentially for them to live out their years in an environment where they are not asked to do anything. they can be a dog. our place is in texas and it's a
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great facility in terms of it is on 20 acres and it's surrounded by tens of thousands of acres of pastures and wooded areas where we let them just unwind and get to be dogs whether it is being chasing cows were running through the lord's having a blast playing ball, going for rides etc.. ideally we'd like to rehabilitate them if necessary and home then. sometimes that works out and sometimes it doesn't. one of the questions i get asked frequently is due dogs get ptsd and the answer in short is yes. it's different in that dogs are simple association animals. they don't have the ability to reason the way people do. and so more so than ptsd it is essentially a negative association with different types of experiences that they've had overseas via to gunfire or helicopters, fire crackers, you
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name it. there are certain things they've been exposed to and have had enough negative experiences that they associate that with that you see issues and problems when they are exposed to those types of things. sometimes it can be something as simple as being in a crate or loading up into a vehicle or trailer. there's a host of things you can see the dogs both have issues with the nice thing about a dog is that generally speaking, you can't unwind the process in two simple ways. number 100 don't ask the dog to do anything. you don't put pressure on him to be obedient. you don't send him to do any of the complicated maneuvers or training scenarios he has done in the past and you just do the things we know as all the people what they like which is throwing balls into taking them for walks, letting them run around without any obedience tasks
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being given to them. that's first and foremost. once you let them unwind a little bit, then we find out what it is the negative association is and then we very slowly bridged that gap and say okay we will use gunfire for an example. gunfire is a defaults to the aggression where he is fighting anybody that he can when he hears gunfire which is not an uncommon thing. so now we are going to desensitize into it where there will be gunfire 2,000 yards away while we are playing ball and then it thousand, then 500. and once you get enough repetitions of positive associations with these things that previously they had negative associations with, you can't unwind and essentially untrained those negative reinforcers with a dog. so we found while some of them may not be of the temperament and the capacity to be home with
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an average family, they are now no longer a danger to everybody around them and themselves, and from a mental stability standpoint they are much more relaxed and calm and confident dogs. so for me it is something i hold very dear to my heart because as a special of -- special operations guy trading but that after vietnam versus now begin the polar opposite, i feel it is every bit as important to do the same thing for these dogs because they are no less of an operator than any of us special operations or any military member for that matter as they play just as big a role as anybody does. one of the things that's also important i think for everybody to understand is the level of
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respect and care that is given to these dogs if they are wounded and when they are retired if they are killed and an action it mirrors the human counterpart. when they are lost or injured, they are lifelike it if need be and stabilized wherever they need to be and then they come back here for more advanced rehabilitation type therapy. they are the exact same way. a lot of people unfortunately have the idea that if a dog is injured or wounded they are disposable we will put and down and move on to the next one. i assure you with 100% guarantee it's nowhere near that. some of the dogs i've retired have been shocked and essentially blown up in explosions and they were sent
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out from a stabilized, wi-fi why flighted, rehabilitated for months to be able to retire them. so for me it's important that everybody understands, you know, not only do they play that enormous role, but the level of respect and care that is given to them is no different than their human counterparts. on a more grave note, the same thing with if they are lost. the special operations command generally have memorials set up where they will have humane names on one side and k9 names on the other side. and it's like this. it's not in balance at all. we are a team and they are considered operators just like the rest of us and so again it's important for me to relay that to you. i would like to finish before i open up for questions you know,
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again, going back to the importance of these dogs i can't speak from personal experience that i am standing here because one of these dogs saved my life. what i can tell you is i have dozens of friends if not in the hundreds it's impossible to quantify because if a dog comes onto an explosive device and finds that it's there, how do you determine how many, that's impossible. but there are a ton of people from a fellow american citizens and our service members who volunteered to get their hands dirty that are standing here today because these dogs have been trained and equipped and managed effectively into these canine programs and its something that i hope as a nation we not only never forget,
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but also that we move forward and be steadfast in our allocation of funds and resources across the spectrum. as things wind down overseas to a certain extent, things are focused on a little heavier back here and there would be an enormous success and victory for any unit that can find a place to use dogs for their safety to implement the program and use them because they are phenomenal at what they do. i can't thank you enough for being here. before i get into the q-and-a, one thing i want to bring up is as far as any questions that you want to ask, historically speaking i found people are
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afraid to ask the questions in terms of how do you justify sending dogs that there is absolutely nothing off limits. to me if you have a tough question or you think it's tough fire it away because my job and my goal is to relay information so you don't have to ask -- you can ask me whatever question you want. it can be as simple as what kind of food do you feed or sleep in terms of theoretical discussion as you want to get. but i encourage anybody to take that and run with it because i -- that's what i'm here for and i'm happy to answer to whatever degree i can from an operational standpoint there are things i can't and won't answer, but if it is something i can answer, i'm happy to do it.
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so moving forward, are there any questions? >> yes. >> [inaudible] >> that's a question -- for those that couldn't hear is what breed or three do you prefer. the answer is i prefer the breed of dog that passes my selection test. having said that, the dutch shepherd and a german shepherd are the only three in my experience that have passed my selection test. i don't have a preference for any of those three. use the military and police work now there are more and more dutch shepherd's being used and again it's not a preference, it's the fact that for a number of reasons, which i want to believe her or get into, there is a higher prevalence for those dogs testing the unit selection criteria. >> are you involved with
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training service dogs? the question was am i involved in the training of service dogs for veterans with ptsd. right now the answer is no. there are a number of groups i've been introduced to and have spoken with in the last 18 months or so that do that and i would love to get to the point where we have an involvement in some capacity. i will see the type of dog that is going to be a good personal protection or military dog etc. is usually not in the same category as a dog that is good for a fellow soldier with ptsd. there are two different missions in terms of how the dogs perform with their temperament and character trait but obviously
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it's a very important thing and we are taking it one step at a time doing the providing and retiring. it's not to beat a dead horse but it's a whole different animal. anybody else? >> do the enemies target the dogs and how do they view that whole issue? >> they do. here's the short answer to what our enemies do. they target everything we have. they don't use any discretion in prioritizing necessarily. if we have something whether it is a truck, weapons truck, convoy, group of soldiers patrolling they are going to target. is there anything that we have is a target. yes. >> i came in a little late so i apologize if you addressed this.
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i have a friend that is very active in all of these now. he feels that the training of the dogs has not kept up with the technology in the military, and i wonder do you agree with that and has it changed dramatically from vietnam to malpractice >> the short answer is yes and no. the interesting thing about dog training is that it's just like any other aspect. it depends on which unit is conducting the training. some are incredibly productive in the use of the commissioning and employing all four quadrants in the reinforcement quadrant and using the body language and reinforcement training. some units are still very old-school and much more compulsive than their training
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methods. so in some respects, yes absolutely there are some that are doing it t the same way they were in vietnam and some are doing it on a much higher level and capacity to. >> i would like to thank you for your service and the dogs that you train. [applause] with depending wind down in the far east, what are the implications for us maintaining some programs and not have what happened in vietnam and what implications does that have for your company because obviously if they switch off, what do you do? and finally how many do you process in the retirement? >> to speak to the first part of the question of the conflicts
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internationally winding down and how it impacts us is very simply alternately it shouldn't come as no different than bringing the troops home from anywhere we shouldn't say let's cut the military and half for the reasons i depicted earlier it is imperative that we keep a level of maintenance at the capacity that we are working now. it can be tricky because there is a bare minimum of infrastructure trainers and facilities and training area equipment etc. but has to be maintained whether it is 30 dogs or one dog. i'm hopeful that given the success record of these dogs they won't turn the light switch
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off and i see a falling back to the bare minimum to maintain the capability, but instead of having 30 dogs, you have four or five which is how i see is panning out. ..
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and unequivocally at the end of >> head and shoulders above any pie of manmade equipment. and the interesting thing about a dog's nose or the use of dogs period is that it's not just their nose that's valuable. nos valuable. their ability to apprehend people and be as mobile as they are and the possession of the ming general lacked as an enormous deterrent for a lot of police forces and military units. they are getting a lot of bang for your buck with a dog's nose. >> you have already mentioned the nose part, the main selection criteria. what a the other main selection criteria you use to choose the dogs to train and how do you go about doing that? how do you decide which one is better equipped than another
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one? >> basically we have a end product that is our ideal and we work backwards from that. to give you the four or five most basic different kind of sections, i guess, that i look for, i look for confidence first and foremost. i want to see a dog that walked around like he owns the place no matter where he is, interact with me very confident we. he is social, is paying attention to me, not defaulting to aggression towards me just because i am a stranger in close to him but a happy medium. the don't want him to be aggressive. don't want to be shy or aloof with me either. so he has to be confident and he has had an enormous level of play drive, just a natural drive to chase and capture things when they're waved in front of his face, throwing the ball and has to have an enormous amount of
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hunt drive, if i tease him by ball, throw the ball in the thick brush and let him go he will spend minutes using his nose, not his eyes but his nose to find the ball, he can't see it, he will sit there and you can watch, like nose on legs snaking back-and-forth and he will do that ended distractions if there is hot and water nearby or other dogs who have marked in the area, if there's traffic or somebody -- gunfire going of which are all things we may simulate to test dedication of the hunt drive for that dog and i want to make sure under all those circumstances he is still going to hunt which mimics a combat environment. if i take a dog who is distracted by food or a female or gunfire while asking him to search, when i send the dog over to and austere environment where he will be used to save people's lives and he is surging and there's a hot dog, oh, there's a
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hot dog, that dog is not of enormous value to us. the sociability in environmental nerve go hand-in-hand. i need a dog that can go anywhere. open stairwells, elevators, escalators, people with wheelchair's, played down the equipment is a good test, the dog will spider monkey his way around, all over playground equipment, usually a good indicator that dog is environmentally pretty sound, taking him into dark rooms, slippery floors i want to see a dog that will do all that. last but not least, i am looking for a dog the one i get in a bright student put pressure on him, mostly mental standpoint and a little from a physical standpoint, i want to see a dog that when i communicate to him with my body and not only am i here, i am not scared of you but intent on doing you holland and make sure you understand that. when i put all of that into a dog i want the dog that is going
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to say you want to roll, let's roll. there are very few dogs that act fat way, from experience. most dogs don't have that genetic trait and it stands to reason, it is counterintuitive that a lack of self preservation exists in most animals, cumin beings included. it is an anomaly treat even when breeding for it, it is rand v. elusive but some things that is crucial for the type of work we do. what makes the selection process so difficult is finding a dog that has everyone of those qualities in very high caliber. kind of like the analogy i use a lot is lebron james or michael jordan of dogs, they have to be at their very best level in every aspect of what we are asking them to do. it is difficult. >> what are your options? >> the question